Curse

cthulhu reborn · Dec 11, 2011, 09:42 PM // 21:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Armor ignoring damage hasn't been reduced, armor sensitive damage has increased a bit. I think it is very likely that the armor will still be high enough to not negate the usefulness of armor ignoring damage. I don't think necros would suffer much, they already have PLENTY of roles and builds that won't be messed up much with these changes.

Also, degen is already pointless to use in PvE, even in normal mode.

Only pointing out the weaknesses of these lines.

Listen, the amount of armour ignoring damage isn't reduced but the HP is raised. That has the same effect. If a mob has 900 hp and it's raised to 1000 hp, I have to use more attacks to kill the same mob. It makes no difference in that sense for the necro whether they reduced the damage he/she does or if the hp amount of enemies is raised.

You talk about specific roles, but I am talking about doing missions in general for titles and not so much silly UW clear builds and to have 1 curses built that is effective is very poor.

That's just like para's who have only one build called imbagon.

Kunder · Dec 11, 2011, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Only pointing out the weaknesses of these lines.

Listen, the amount of armour ignoring damage isn't reduced but the HP is raised. That has the same effect. If a mob has 900 hp and it's raised to 1000 hp, I have to use more attacks to kill the same mob. It makes no difference in that sense for the necro whether they reduced the damage he/she does or if the hp amount of enemies is raised.

You talk about specific roles, but I am talking about doing missions in general for titles and not so much silly UW clear builds and to have 1 curses built that is effective is very poor.

That's just like para's who have only one build called imbagon.

There is really only 1 effective curse build now. Sorry, thats the way it is. I don't think Necros are near the front of the line for getting their own update soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

Or you could just call it indecisive... A bit like multiplicative or additive percentages.......................

Stuff like IAU being applied after the capping of armor and the effects of Cracked Armor, and +armor from items being applied differently depending on whether its an insignia bonus or an inherent bonus. And there is stuff like EBSoH which you have to test to figure out that it doesn't work on most, but not all, armor ignoring damage. Then we have prots like SoA always applying itself after Prot Spirit but Shielding Hands applies depending on the order you cast it, even though both apply the same damage reduction effect to players.

Indecisive is a bit too tame, I find the work clusterRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO to be a better description.

EPO Bot · Dec 11, 2011, 09:52 PM // 21:52

Don't you guys never get sick of using that "one effective build" all the time?

cthulhu reborn · Dec 11, 2011, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

There is really only 1 effective curse build now. Sorry, thats the way it is. I don't think Necros are near the front of the line for getting their own update soon.

Yep and that's the underlying problem that is made worse by this.

You see, not everybody wants to play the same build over and over and not everybody does UWSC for a living.

Some people just want to create builds with different skills but it's these crazy "efficient" builds that need to be considered that ruin it for other players that are less hardcore in that respect.

This update shows that the ele is getting some updates to make them interesting again.

Para needs that.

Necro needs that.

But the necro is one of the original classes and just has been nerfed to oblivion. It used to be my favourite class that I hardly play anymore. Let the heroes do it because it's boring.

You may say that it's the way it is, but that doesn't make it better and this HM update just makes that even worse. Hundreds of skills, but you only get to use one build.

And I am sure I am allowed to be unhappy about that.

HigherMinion · Dec 11, 2011, 09:58 PM // 21:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by EPO Bot

Don't you guys never get sick of using that "one effective build" all the time?

^ You should probably try experimenting with paragoons, they're not that bad. Also, Necromancers are versatile. The only issue is people now have an understanding of what curses spells are strong and what aren't. Hence why you wouldn't gimp yourself with the bad ones. Still got Death and Blood which people DO use. Orders, Minion Mastery, soul reaping for N/x hybrid bars, etc.

Axel Zinfandel · Dec 11, 2011, 10:12 PM // 22:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Only pointing out the weaknesses of these lines.

Listen, the amount of armour ignoring damage isn't reduced but the HP is raised. That has the same effect. If a mob has 900 hp and it's raised to 1000 hp, I have to use more attacks to kill the same mob. It makes no difference in that sense for the necro whether they reduced the damage he/she does or if the hp amount of enemies is raised.

You talk about specific roles, but I am talking about doing missions in general for titles and not so much silly UW clear builds and to have 1 curses built that is effective is very poor.

That's just like para's who have only one build called imbagon.

I realize that higher HP reduces effectiveness of armor ignoring damage. more accurately, LESS ARMOR, reduces effectiveness of armor ignoring damage. indirectly, that is. The DPS of armor ignoring damage would remain constant while the effectiveness of armor sensitive damage would raise.

but the 'higher HP' argument can be made about armor sensitive damage as well. Higher HP just makes killing stuff harder.

The idea that Necros are in bad shape is ridiculous. They have some of the more versatile build options available to them. The only trouble lays in the fact that MOST of these builds are best left to heroes. Necro players don't have much to work with that isn't rehashing hero builds for their own.

I saw this a long time coming though. the more classes get updated, the more other classes, who were fine before, are suddenly wanting their update because people are using the newer updated classes.
But I digress, all this relays on a balance we're not even sure of yet. How much more health they'll have vs how much less armor.

DiogoSilva · Dec 11, 2011, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Necromancers are nowhere near a bad situation. There's a big difference between only having 1 build for 1 attribute, and 1 build for the entire profession (paragons).

_Aphotic_ · Dec 12, 2011, 12:26 AM // 00:26

Another random question:

Will Doublecast skills literally "Doublecast", and trigger the effects of a spell, Backfire, twice?

Daesu · Dec 12, 2011, 01:05 AM // 01:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

And then elementalists would be grossly overpowered for Normal Mode, and HM elementalist bosses would one-hit kill entire parties. The source of the problem lies on the way HM works.

Since they have already buffed up Rits and Mesmer damages, one can also say they have buffed them up for NM too. Since some are already saying eles kill slower than energy surge mesmers even in NM, then sure, go ahead and buff up eles for NM, who cares? But Anet doesn't have to scew with everyone's damages by making such a blanketing change on armor/hp ratio.

I don't see why they need to mess up everyone's damage by screwing with the armor/hp ratio. If they want to buff eles, just buff up their damage numbers enough like what they did for rits and mesmers without messing with general PvE hp/armor ratio.

They don't have to nerf armor ignoring damage and make rits and mesmers kill slower (due to higher hps) in order to buff eles. They can just buff up eles enough to make them balanced.

I won't be surprised if this update becomes a general resultant nerf to all classes since with cracked armor, we can already get -20 armor easily in HM right now without buffing hp of HM monsters. And cracked armor is very easily included into a team build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I realize that higher HP reduces effectiveness of armor ignoring damage. more accurately, LESS ARMOR, reduces effectiveness of armor ignoring damage. indirectly, that is. The DPS of armor ignoring damage would remain constant while the effectiveness of armor sensitive damage would raise.

Not true, armor ignoring damage is not affected by armor at all. Therefore less or more armor does NOT reduce nor increase effectiveness of armor IGNORING damages.

However, increasing hp DOES reduce the effectiveness of all damages in general because you would kill slower.

Ariena Najea · Dec 12, 2011, 01:11 AM // 01:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Aphotic_

Another random question:

Will Doublecast skills literally "Doublecast", and trigger the effects of a spell, Backfire, twice?

Judging by the individual spell descriptions, no. You are not casting two spells, rather a single spell that targets an ally and additionally affects yourself.

Marverick · Dec 12, 2011, 01:14 AM // 01:14

Rangers have like 0 effective builds right now. Can they get fixed first?

Pretty much every single skill worth using on a Ranger has in fact been nerfed over the past few years...

Kunder · Dec 12, 2011, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Rangers have like 0 effective builds right now. Can they get fixed first?

Pretty much every single skill worth using on a Ranger has in fact been nerfed over the past few years...

Totally untrue. Antidote signet is still good

Swingline · Dec 12, 2011, 01:34 AM // 01:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marverick

Rangers have like 0 effective builds right now. Can they get fixed first?

Pretty much every single skill worth using on a Ranger has in fact been nerfed over the past few years...

More like 0 OP meta builds. The best thing about the Ranger is people are left to experiment with them rather than copy/pasting a meta build from pvx and rolling HM content like a pair of loaded dice. The Paragon shares this to but the Imbagon overshadows it.

Marverick · Dec 12, 2011, 02:21 AM // 02:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swingline

More like 0 OP meta builds. The best thing about the Ranger is people are left to experiment with them rather than copy/pasting a meta build from pvx and rolling HM content like a pair of loaded dice. The Paragon shares this to but the Imbagon overshadows it.

I don't really know what you mean by "OP meta build" but there really aren't any effective builds.. AT ALL.

Things that kinda work:

AP Trappers: decent for guarding backline with dust traps/throw dirt and stuff, also get to pack PvE skills to use with AP. completely outclassed by AP Air eles, among other things like curse necros/etc. plus the fact that PvE skills + secondary elite skill makes them good doesn't really mean much for the ranger...

Ignite Arrows/EBSoH/Incendiary Arrows - gives okay damage, but no room for utility since you don't have any spare energy. completely outclassed by better dedicated damage dealers.

Barrage-type builds: see above

BHA/Prep+Concussion Shot: standard interrupt/shutdowns, completely outclassed by mesmers now which both disrupt better and deal more damage simultaneously. Not to mention technobabble is sufficient for 99% of the time anyway.

Beastmasters: they got better with bar compression of removing charm animal. Pet AI still sucks. Strike as One needs to be a non-elite 0 energy 2s cooldown shadowstep for these things to be useful at fighting rather than walking.

Pet/Bow hybrids with Enraged Lunge/Volley/Interrupts: good builds offering decent damage and disruption. but pets still take way too long to respond...

Things which used to be very effective and were nerfed for no reason:

Ebon Dust Aura: R/D blindbots were amazing, and volley+splinter weapon still allowed for decent damage.

Expert's Dexterity: allowed you to chain dagger attacks at 2s cooldown for infinite kd locks or just loads of damage. golden lotus --> jungle strike --> trampling ox/death blossom.
the new version is completely utterly useless due to the fact that Rangers need their elites either for energy management or something more substantial than an IAS.

Asuran Scan: pretty much the only thing that enabled rangers to compete with other physicals for damage dealing in PvE. the new version is completely useless.

Turrets in general: Flail was the only sustainable viable IAS. Penetrating Attack/Sundering Attack did not need an aftercast.

Kunder · Dec 12, 2011, 02:40 AM // 02:40

Barrage w/ splinter weapon (and potentially MoP) is still quite effective in dealing damage and lets you easily keep up SY. Not quite as good as melee because of the slower attack speed but you can camp EBSoH along with your caster heroes. Basically plays as an imbagon that actually hurts things.

Rangers are also very good at dagger builds with pets. Better damage than Sins actually, but with the drawback of not having SY with them. Not a big problem for the 95% of the game outside HM elite areas though.

FengShuiDove · Dec 12, 2011, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kunder

Rangers are also very good at dagger builds with pets. Better damage than Sins actually, but with the drawback of not having SY with them. Not a big problem for the 95% of the game outside HM elite areas though.

Been playing a lot of Ranger recently on my second account, mostly because of the options. They're weaker than Warriors, Dervishes, and Assassins, but can do the job well enough to be fun and effective in most situations.

That having been said, here's what I think Rangers lack:

-IAS independent of pet/secondary. NRA is actually a fairly good skill (could be improved, but it's workable), but obviously requires a pet. There are a couple other general IAS options (Drunken Master, Flail, Lightning Reflexes and Frenzy), but they're either unsustainable or depend on a pet or secondary profession.
-Energy management. Expertise is a good system, and makes builds that have some adrenaline skills feel very spammy. With daggers though, you HAVE to bring Scavenger or some other form of gain. Bows as well have zero good options for gaining energy. It's almost the same problem as the Ele's Energy Storage... just having high energy is not management. Just making things cost less is not management.
-Bows need to be worthwhile. IA and Barrage are fine, but the builds are always just built around making the elite shine as much as possible. I'd really like to be able to do more things with a bow.

Axel Zinfandel · Dec 12, 2011, 03:44 AM // 03:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daesu

Not true, armor ignoring damage is not affected by armor at all. Therefore less or more armor does NOT reduce nor increase effectiveness of armor IGNORING damages.

However, increasing hp DOES reduce the effectiveness of all damages in general because you would kill slower.

I meant that it reduces the effectiveness indirectly, due to the fact that armor-sensitive damage is more effective on targets with lower armor. Right now, in HM Armor ignoring damage is king. If you lowered the armor level, armor sensitive damage will even out when compared to armor -ignoring- damage.

And yes, increasing HP reduces effectiveness of all damage sources. I said this. This is also most certainly a GOOD thing. People have been saying HM is too easy for ages now.

Da Kenster · Dec 12, 2011, 04:05 AM // 04:05

Heh, so much discussion about the skill update. I'm still curious to see what happens with Nick and/or Yakkington tomorrow

Daesu · Dec 12, 2011, 04:16 AM // 04:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I meant that it reduces the effectiveness indirectly, due to the fact that armor-sensitive damage is more effective on targets with lower armor. Right now, in HM Armor ignoring damage is king. If you lowered the armor level, armor sensitive damage will even out when compared to armor -ignoring- damage.

Armor does not affect armor ignoring damage period! Not directly or even indirectly. Trying to twist your mind to justify indirect influence of armor on armor ignoring damage only leads to greater confusion and is probably the wrong concept.

If you lower armor level by a little while at the same time increasing hp by LOTS and LOTS, it would still be a resultant nerf to ALL damage classes. As it is right now, I can lower HM monster armor by -20, down to 60 armor, using simple cracked armor condition, without having the side effect of raising HM monster's hp.

So whether the update would be a resultant nerf or buff to all classes compared to what we already have through cracked armor, depends on how much they raise or lower hp and armor.

Quote:

And yes, increasing HP reduces effectiveness of all damage sources. I said this. This is also most certainly a GOOD thing. People have been saying HM is too easy for ages now.

Most people who say this tend to avoid HM elite areas like HM DoA, and HM UW. You need to differentiate between the braggers (i.e. I also can say anything I want on the internet without proofs) and those who actually perform these HM areas, using just heroes, with proven time records, and without using cons.

Kunder · Dec 12, 2011, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

-IAS independent of pet/secondary. NRA is actually a fairly good skill (could be improved, but it's workable), but obviously requires a pet. There are a couple other general IAS options (Drunken Master, Flail, Lightning Reflexes and Frenzy), but they're either unsustainable or depend on a pet or secondary profession.

Yeah, lack of good IAS is a huge problem. Frenzy is fun though

Quote:

-Energy management. Expertise is a good system, and makes builds that have some adrenaline skills feel very spammy. With daggers though, you HAVE to bring Scavenger or some other form of gain. Bows as well have zero good options for gaining energy. It's almost the same problem as the Ele's Energy Storage... just having high energy is not management. Just making things cost less is not management.

Reducing energy costs ARE energy management. The best kind of energy management, in fact. The problem is that a great many Ranger skills tend to be 10e+ and require Expertise to be brought down to the standard 5e for attack skills. Also, incredibly useful PvE skills that you really NEED cost a ton of energy and most aren't affected by Expertise.

Daggers are another matter though. 13 Expertise = 2e per skill. A whole dagger chain costs 2e with zealous daggers. Unless you are mixing in expensive Pet Attacks along with NRA you should never have problems.

Quote:

-Bows need to be worthwhile. IA and Barrage are fine, but the builds are always just built around making the elite shine as much as possible. I'd really like to be able to do more things with a bow.

Agreed. Ideally if Barrage/Volley could be buffed to IA's range and IA could have its recharge lowered to 2s or so we would have a lot more variety. Because pretty much everything in PvE needs one of those 3 skills. Barrage would be pure damage, Volley would be for other elites, IA for prep builds.